On Wednesday (8 May 2013) morning, I was looking through my Facebook news feeds during a break when I chanced upon a post on The Rice Bowl page which mentioned that a Member of Parliament representing the Bishan-Toa Payoh Group Representation Constituency, Zainudin Nordin, had made some rather controversial comments on his public Facebook page.
I was perplexed at this assertion, what with him having directly benefited from the democratic process to become a member of parliament in Singapore - one of the highest paid politicians in the world. The issue of why an MP would use gang rape to explain the concept of democracy continued to bug me and so I decided create the following meme and share it on my facebook page to ask whether he had seriously said such a thing.
My friends and I had some discussion on the matter and soon after, someone pointed me to a screenshot (below) of the statement made by Zainudin. It was actually a quotation from Terry Goodkind, an author, and the entire quotation in its entirety emphasises that democracy should not come at the price of the individual's rights (Goodkind was referring to America's attempts to install a democracy in Iraq during an interview).
I duly added this information that night to the meme that had been posted itself but still continued to wonder what the MP was implying by posting that quotation on his Facebook page. Could it be that he felt the Singapore government was infringing upon the individual's rights here? Or did he hold a dim view of democracy altogether? More questions seemed to arise from a better understanding of the post as it appeared on the MP's Facebook page than before I had that information.
Imagine my surprise when I saw an email from 'zainudinnordin@gmail.com' in my email inbox the next morning, and at first I was quite impressed that the MP had sought me out personally to discuss and clarify his position. Alas, this happy moment was shortlived when the text read:
Dear Mr Gangasudhan,
You have posted a picture of me together with a quote “Gang rape, after all, is democracy in action”, which you have attributed to me. This is a statement by Terry Goodkind, and not me. Your post is therefore mischievous and highly defamatory of me, and calculated to embarrass me and cause me damage. I therefore demand that you remove your post immediately, failing which I will have no option but to take the appropriate legal action against you. All my rights are reserved.
Thank you.
Zainudin Nordin
Honestly, it was quite upsetting to see an MP resort to hostility when open discussion and honest debate could have clarified the matter. I felt unduly persecuted by a person of authority when all I had done was pose a question. At first, I just wanted to delete the meme and be over with it, never again to trust Zainudin Nordin, but after some thought, I felt it would be more constructive to use this opportunity to engage the MP and understand his stand on the concept of democracy and gain insight as to why he would endorse Terry Goodkind's statement. I thus sent the following reply to him, in the hopes that he will refrain from a hostile approach and adopt a more inclusive attitude, befitting an elected official in a democratic institution:
Dear sir, I am puzzled as to why you might feel embarrassed by the combination of your image and a reproduction of what you posted publically on your Facebook page. But more importantly, as a voting member of the public, I am very disturbed by what seems to be your endorsement of this opinion that democracy can be explained away using a heinous crime such as gang rape.
Generally, I do not bother with politicians’ Facebook pages but when I chanced upon a Facebook posting elsewhere on Wednesday morning (https://www.facebook.com/sonofadud/posts/505031336210687) that described the post you had made regarding democracy, I was shocked – to say the least. I thus reproduced the statement attributed to you together with your picture to ask my friends why a politician receiving $192,000 of taxpayer dollars would even think to say such a thing. The picture is to identify the person who said it and the quote is a verbatim reproduction, thus I do not see what there is to be embarrassed about nor how could this be interpreted as mischievous intent. In fact, this was merely an act of free speech in posing a legitimate question to my friends – how could a highly-paid elected official who has taken office to represent the people through a democratic process imply that the very same process was akin to gang rape?Subsequently, through the responses from my friends, I was able to find a screen-capture of the posting as it appeared on your Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=523797831010442) and noticed that you had actually reproduced a quote from someone else and not directly made the statement yourself, thus I added the relevant information to reflect this new information on Wednesday night (see screen-capture below).
Looking at the quotation you reproduced on your Facebook page in full though, I am no more reassured by your position on the issue of democracy. The statement by Terry Goodkind suggests that the rights of the individual should not be infringed in the name of democracy, so are you saying that the Singapore government – a democratically elected institution - does not recognise the rights of the individual?
At best, the reproduction of Terry Goodkind’s statement demonstrates poor taste in discussing the concept of democracy – not to mention makes light of the very serious crime of rape (what more, with the world reeling from the news of the many brutal rape cases in India). As an ethnic Indian, I am actually offended at the insinuation that I would use the issue of gang rape to be “mischievous” in any way.
I am also disappointed that as an elected member of parliament who purports to represent the interests of your constituents, you have taken issue with a meme meant to invite discussion – i.e. instead of engaging in discussion and clarifying your position, you have attempted to remove the discussion altogether. This is not at all what I would expect from an elected representative of the people and I have somewhat lost faith in your ability to represent the best interests of the community of Singaporeans you serve.
I therefore hope that you will use this opportunity to engage in discussion and reassure me, a citizen of Singapore, rather than continue with what appears to be an exercise to silence me, thank you. In the meanwhile, I will share this exchange with my friends through my personal blog so that others can better understand the context of the meme I created as well as your thoughts on the matter, take care.
Ganga| www.gangasudhan.com
| www.gangasudhan.com/blog
| +65-90602206
I now await the reply from Zainudin Nordin and will decide what to do next depending on his reply. Hopefully, this will be just a misunderstanding from which we can come out with an insight into his opinions and philosophy on democracy and civil rights. Whatever it is, I shall update the developments here.
UPDATE 10/05/2013 @ 2345HRS
MP Zainudin Nordin replied at around 4.30pm with the following email message:
UPDATE 10/05/2013 @ 2345HRS
MP Zainudin Nordin replied at around 4.30pm with the following email message:
Dear Mr Gangasudhan,
It is clear from your initial posting that it was your intention to ridicule me, and not to debate issues. To do that, you deliberately and mischievously attributed Terry Goodkind’s quote to me and even extracted, without context, part of that quote. Your motives were plain and your response, contrived. You had no choice but to correct this egregious error, but I note there is no hint of an apology from you.
I think it is important to have open, honest debates on issues of the day. It is responses such as yours which in fact stifle honest debate and discourage people from sharing their views.
Thank you.
Zainudin Nordin
Sent from my iPhone
49 comments:
Fight for your own justice!
Do not let that MP bring you down.
in your picture, it is very clear that you attributed the "quote" to Zainudin (instead of Terry, ..or indicating that Zainudin quoted Terry).
-jammie
you have just won yrself a new fan
There is no discussion to be discussed. You took a section of a quote not by him to create a humiliating meme, labelling it under zainudin.
If you want to create a discussion you should had taken the whole post, which actually made sense and create a proper secondary citation, which you actually did not.
You are shooting yourself in the foot by just letting this matter lingers.
All of the PAP dogs can vacate the premises now. You got your $1 for the post, now you can all scram.
If got guts, stand out and say these things with your real names instead of hiding behind 'Anonymous'.
Support you to fight these bastards from destroying our society and democracy!
Hrm so anyone with a different viewpoint is now automatically a "PAP dog"? So much for discussion :p
Dear people, the MP has burned himself by endorsing a quote from another person. Its as good as saying that he is an accomplice of a crime but he didnt commit it. There is a thin line between the truth and lies, so stop crossing over and back.
The PAP IB have missed the point again. Whether it was his comment or someone else's quote doesn't matter. He published it on his public facebook page, and so the meme stands because it connects the words with the guy who published them (and then deleted them). The PAP will sue you for other people's comments on your site (that you have limited control over), so why should he hide behind the "it's not my comment" argument? Pathetic from an MP and I applaud your efforts to engage in discussion rather than roll over. Well done.
Your intention was to mock him, not start a discussion. Your actions very clearly demonstrates this. His response to a troll is a good one.
It sounds like you're upset that it backfired. The point of the meme is to ridicule. When you ridicule someone, expect the person to be offended.
The legal threat may be too much coming from him. But he has the right to be offended.
The quote from Terry Goodwind itself is accurate in describing the flaw of democracy IF used in its context.
Hi Mr Gangasudhan, I hope you will engage me in a little discussion here too. First, let me state I am by no means a fan of PAP or their policies. But I do think that quote has some truth behind it. Please let me try to explain.
I believe the quote he was using is referring to the tyranny of the masses. Google it. It means when the desires of the majority supersede the rights of the minority.
Imagine a small country or society of say, 5 people. 3 men and 2 women. If the 3 men want to have sex with the women, but the 2 women don't want to, and the men force sex on them anyway because well, the majority agreed, is that gang rape? Yes. But is that also democracy? Also, yes, because it had been agreed upon by the majority of the population: the 3 men.
Whether there are more women than men in the world in inconsequential, as it is an analogy taken to the extreme that can be applied to large parts of the world.
The native American and Australian people have been metaphorically butt fucked by the majority for more than a hundred years. The inalienable individual rights of the American Japanese were also discarded by US during WW2 when they interned thousands of American Japanese people. The Malaysian Chinese and Indians have also been metaphorically "gang raped" by the Malay majority and the Bumiputera policy for years.
The point of the quote was that the rights of the individual or minority should not be overlooked by what the majority wants. He is in fact saying that democracy - specifically what the majority wants - must never supercede individual rights.
What the MP said had no malicious intent so I hope you guys give this matter a rest.
Agreed.
His quote is actually very good, but then his response to his critics is very childish.
I call bullshit on your defense.
Your meme wasn't a question about whether he meant what he said at all ("$192,000 for this?" doesn't count; you should know better), and it was the effect of the meme - which circulated far and widely on Facebook - that you're being taken to task for.
You should have known better, and done your due dilligence. Asking why Nordin posted a provocative Goodkind quote without context wouldn't have landed you with a C&D notice.
This is your hole you dug, and now you have to climb out of it. Good luck.
I call bullshit on your defense.
Your meme wasn't a question about whether he meant what he said at all ("$192,000 for this?" doesn't count; you should know better), and it was the effect of the meme - which circulated far and widely on Facebook - that you're being taken to task for.
You should have known better, and done your due dilligence. Asking why Nordin posted a provocative Goodkind quote without context wouldn't have landed you with a C&D notice.
This is your hole you dug, and now you have to climb out of it. Good luck.
Good one, respect
ZN puts up a long quote from TG.
RB take "most offensive, most controversial" sentence from quote to insinuate that ZN believes wholeheartedly that democracy = gang rape.
GS puts said quote on meme, then questions why ZN is getting paid 192k a year. Says he's doing this not out of mischief but to provoke discussion.
KNN, if I ZN I also sue.
Obviously he chooses the "most offensive, most controversial" sentence. It's the bloody one we have been offended by.
This Nordin dude ought to apologise for the quote. Memes arising like this one are his fault, no?
This quote is perfectly sensible when taken in context. Don't see the need for ZN to apologize
Hi Gangasudhan, I am a Singaporean-Malay myself.
I hope the reference made by MP Zainudin does not reflect on how other Malays would think about the democracy. In fact, I am disappointed and have lost faith on all PAP Malay MPs.
Personally, I have worked on an event with MP Zainudin about 4 few years back. His arrogance in handling ground matters makes me wonder how he is able to serve the citizens at all.
I doubt you will be able to get anything positive from this but I will be supporting you and hopefully, he understands that standing up and explaining the matter would be better than to run and hide behind the lawyers.
He (PAP) just failed the 1st rule of Social Media. When you post something offensive and get caught, the first thing NOT TO DO is to DELETE your post or comments. And he did exactly just that.
All the best and looking forward to the outcome!
- Plsdontrun&hide
Gang Rape is not a human thing.Anyone who commits such a perverted unnatural act and must never be accepted in the human society.I will never recognise such low-lifes as human but only as animals.As a muslim,even in Islam such perversion is totally abominated with almost no forgiveness.As such equating gang rape to democracy is totally unthinkable and absolutely irrelevent.Elected officials must be very careful with their utterance in public.Otherwise public office would be no different from a rowdy bar.This MP must apologise for his insensitivity in the choice of his words.
All these trouble just because somebody stole a quote from somebody.
http://cloudywindz.blogspot.sg/2013/05/so-some-people-are-suing-some-people.html
RB, digging his own grave, whole quote taken out of context. Totally had it coming. Good one ZN!(Though I'd rather you thoughtfully explain it once more to RB, although it has already once been thoughtfully explained once by ZN himself.)
On a lighter note, damn, MOE should remove SBQs from exams, people are getting too smart at inferring crap.
ZN was basically pointing out some little faults the democracy presents, such as overlooking the needs of the minority because of the consensus of the majority. Gang rape was only an analogy.
It's a general crime, how can you guys get so offended by it?! And it's a damn quote. Blunt, but true.
By leaving out the 2nd paragraph of the quote, you have changed the whole context.
Yes, peolple like you should be sued.
Actually, when i first saw the quote out of context i felt it didnt have any malicious intent at all. It was kind of a food for thought. So i couldnt really fathom why was there was a commotion other than the fact that he used a sensitive phrase "gang rape". He didnt equate democracy as gang rape nor is gang rape purely democracy. Its more of an example that gang rape constitutes some form of collective effort as in democracy, and the end result of collective effort may not always be for good. I particularly like the explanation in one of the comments here about the 3 guys 2 woman example. Therefore i think it is a little childish for you to have to resort to a "meme" creation to ask your friends if it is true or not. As much as you reply otherwise it is quite obvious that you did it to generate a buzz as well. (And frankly the edited photo - i wouldnt even call it a meme - wasnt even that funny at all).
However, what has gotten me interested in this commotion was his reply to your photo. I agree with you that it is a hostile reply. Rather than discussing his intent of publicly posting that quotation and connect with the masses to undo the misunderstanding he chose to retract and keep mum and "threathened" or should i say "warn" to take lawful action. Seems petty and cowardice in my opinion.
Hence i like the sass of your reply, but because i dont like how you started this debacle i cannot fully support you. But your act to show how MPs respond to the public through your blog definitely deserves praise. I hope more people do so, to show not only the bad replies, but also the good as we progress toward being a democratic people.
So, you take Mr. Zainudin at his word when he makes a post on Facebook, but when he sends you a private correspondence, you express your bewilderment and concern about hostility and his presumably non-inclusive attitude?
I feel Mr. Zainudin made a poor choice in his literary reference (not to mention presentation). Perhaps it may even be indicative of his attitudes and political philosophy - but if you're attempting to draw out that much from a Facebook post, I'd wonder:
1. Why you'd even bother with the post - surely there are better indicators of those things, such as records (or the lack thereof) of his participation in parliament.
2. Why Mr. Zainudin's clearly worded email to you is as puzzling and troubling as you say, given your capacity for careful reading.
stupid bimbo. he already said that this quote is not from him. image if i state 'im a fucker a big liar fucker' and i put ur face under it. then everyone who reads it thinks you are a fucker and love being fucked. its the same thing cunt.
I sense that he chanced upon the quote on democracy and thought it'd look cool and edgy on his page, that he'd come across as someone who is relevant with the times and perfectly able to connect on an intellectual level with his humble subjects.
Then it blew way out of proportion and in true Singaporean subordinate fashion - unable to think out of the box - he consulted in his ultra lao jiao masters who urged him to bring in the big guns the old school way and obliterate the impudent peasants who dare to question his authority
Actually, the quote is from the story Naked Empire http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1443364-naked-empire.
It has NOTHING to do with Iraq and if anyone wants to take the full context, while it touches on tyranny of the masses, its real context was that right and wrong is determined by popularity but by the inherent rightness of the idea.
And yes, that was probably the context and reasons for quote here, but the FULL context is actually slightly disturbing, since it was made as a rebuttal to the Imperial Order ideology and argues for an individualistic society, where each is to his own. Or in the context of that novel, you yourself deserve what you get(The wizard rule in the novel was deserve victory).
Maybe it might help if people read the whole series and know things like
"The Second Rule is that the greatest harm can result from the best intentions. It sounds a paradox, but kindness and good intentions can be an insidious path to destruction. Sometimes doing what seems right is wrong, and can cause harm. The only counter to it is knowledge, wisdom, forethought, and understanding the First Rule. Even then, that is not always enough.” "
The First Rule is
"People are stupid"
If the MP is not inthe wrong, then why was he deleting his comment?
"If the MP is not inthe wrong, then why was he deleting his comment?"
Perhaps it's because people with reading comprehension problems are taking his post out of context without even understanding what the whole quote meant. Selectively choosing a sentence, out of an entire chunk, that would effectively put the mp in bad light and then making a meme out of it is not asking for discussion.
How would you like it if I quote your comment as follows: Anonymous thinks that the "...MP is not inthe wrong?"
Made you sound like you think he's right, doesn't it? Not everyone deletes things out of guilty conscience, sometimes it is to reduce unnecessary drama that occurs beyond their control.
An quote posted on fb meant to talk about not overlooking minority rights now sounds like an endorsement of gang rape instead. Look at it another way. Taking the context of the mp's quote correctly, I can also selectively quote replies to this post that disagrees with the mp to mean that they disagree with taking care of minority rights.
It would all end up in a big big misunderstanding.....
hello
The important issue here is what was Mr Zainudin's objective in posting the quote on his facebook page in the first place. He has conveniently sidestepped the issue and concentrated on make accusations of mischief. Address the issue Mr Zainudin, before you ask for the meme to be removed. Or are you just incapable of engaging in honest discussion.
This guy thinks he is a soccer pundit also.
www.centrecircle.com.sg
#toomuchfreetime
Majority rule is not democracy. Democracy includes individual rights protected by the constitution. So, where the majority puts its will against an individual and if that will infringes his rights, then it's not democracy. It could be tyranny of the majority.
Hahahaha! So says anonymous. You sir are either a great comedian or a total idiot. It's pretty clear what this liar Ganga was up to. Taking a quote out of context, focusing on rape, misattributing it and in fact implying it was by Zainudin. And then when confronted pretending it was for discussion, but instead of looking at the relevant part of the quote, continues to accuse Zainudin of advocating rape. And yet, in this post he claims to want a discussion on democracy? Sorry. Ganga is a bare faced liar with no honesty or scruples. And not a very smart one at that. So I would add the charge of idiocy to defamation. And honestly if this is the calibre of people you expect to fight to dethrone PAP, well, you figure out your chances.
ZN has nothing to apologies for. Ganga was clearly trying to ridicule by taking a quote out of context. He is a liar. He is without scruples. He is a coward. And he's stupid. Lay the evidence out as he did and you can see which side the truth lies. I hope he gets sued for every cent.
Zainudin, please SUE this dumb ass Gangsanam Style guy. It's CLEAR that he wants to stir shit on the internet. Btw Zainudin, let me give you a tip if you're reading this. Singaporeans are not intellectual enough to understand such quotes, so don't bother posting such stuff next time.
Look at all those anonymous comments. A bunch of cowards!
Fired the MP!
at the anonymous comments threatening to sue eh?
name yourself!
http://teengirlandpolitics.blogspot.sg/2013/05/gang-rape-is-democracy-mp-zainudin-be.html
It's a real shame that you didn't have the full quotation and as well as the original author's name in the image(apparently it makes a lot of difference).
Everyone please go see zainudin Facebook page - he deleted all the negative feedback and comments and kept only the supporting ones. Making it seem like nothing has happened. Taxpayers are paying mp allowance to someone like this who does not hesitate to censor and oppress free speech where people can criticise him freely. Is this the Singapore we want for our children?
Gangasudhan: Zainudin didn't say that, he only quoted it and if you believe in freedom of expression, it is his right ! But you wrongly attributed the words to Zainudin himself. For that, Terry Goodkind could have sent you an objecting email, probably not Zainudin.
Now I think Zainudin went wrong in sending a cease and desist notice to you rather than ignore you. It always creates a "chilling effect". You did the right thing (legally as well as ethically) by correcting your post in response to Zainudin. Human beings make mistakes but ethical human beings will correct when pointed out. So all is well that ends well. Be happy !
P.S. You should also check out the US site Chilling Effects database that catalogs all such such cease and desist notices. It has a good number of samples from all countries of the world and you will find that the wordings are fairly standard, similar to the one you received.
I disagree with the small country example made by Anon at 10 May 2013 14:27:00. He or she (just like Terry Goodkind) assumes a gross simplification of democracy to rule by majority. Semantics and definitions aside, the current working democracies we see in the world is more than mob rule and they entail individual rights, constitutional law and social norms. For Terry and anon above to claim "democracy is gang rape" is to ignore the other features of democracy.
Moreover, gang rape brings to mind non-consent on the part of the victim, a threat of violence and sexist connotation. All these are counter to our notion of democracy which is why a lot of people are offended by Zainudin's facebook post.
It is this ignorance of other aspects of democracy, unintended or otherwise, and misuse of the gang rape metaphor, that I find the whole quote distasteful and would like Zainudin to explain his choice of this quote.
To those commenters who assume that alot of people have misunderstood the quote (and hence Zainudin) due to them not reading it in its entirety or not being able to comprehend the quote, I suggest you reread the quote.
" ... Gang rape, after all, is democracy in action. ...."
Even though the point of the quote was about something else, the author of the quote did make the claim that gang rape equals democracy in action. Most people, ignorant or not about the point of the quote, took offence with the above claim and Zainudin for posting it as a public figure. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with being offended by this quote and demanding an explanation from a public figure who is supposedly representing you?
To gangasudhan, thank you for creating this meme. May I suggest shortening it to "192K grape?" ?
Whatever it is, it is ridiculous for some1 to threathen legal action for a MEME! U ever see Fernando Torres or Obama suing MEME makers?
I guess I arrive to late for the debate, but I suppose it's also the right time for a summary on all the comments:
1) First things first, I personally think the quote is, although not really tasteful, brilliantly accurate.
2) I saw a few people in the comments claiming the quote is sexist, those people are the perfect example of people who shouldn't be allowed to vote. They are the ones who make democracy bad because, to put things gently, they appear to have limited thinking abilities. The quote doesn't mean gang rape is cool, it means democracy is not. Dumb*****. (sorry couldn't resist) It would be the same with, say, a couple of gangsters executing their single hostage, that's democracy too if they're alone, but good luck narrating that as short and punchy...
3) I agree the MP's reaction is really lame. I mean, OK he's not the author of the quote, but it's fair to assume he wouldn't have posted it on Facebook if he didn't endorse it...
4) Still, the "meme" is stupid. I agree to question the salary of MPs in general, but taking a good thought as an example for that is fail. Although he kind of bites the hand that feeds him, that could also mean he's brave enough to defend ideas that would maybe not give him his nice job. If you ask me we need more MPs like this, usually all MPs are clinging to their privileges like mad and will never ever make reforms against the corrupt system that put them in charge.
On a side note, the first time I saw it it was too small for the bottom-right bubble to be readable and I thought "hm, nice promotion for the guy, although the quote is a bit lengthy".
5) Defending said meme as "an act of free speech" while at the same time you claim a highly paid elected official shouldn't say this or that is a bit ironic...
6) Both parties claiming they want to debate whereas they just wish the other would shut up is a bit ironic too.
Final note, I'm not from Singapore (not even remotely close to it), so I'm unaware of local specificity, although that's probably not much of an issue to the matter at hand. I still hope you manage to settle of this without going through some legal mess, unlike you and your favorite MP I don't believe bad taste should be muted, fired or sued, even when the substance is as wrong as the form.
Hey, please don't stop writing...I stumbled upon yr blog because of this... read some of your posts and liked them...have been checking every few days for any new posts but nothing new for almost 4 months now. Don't let them silence you...
I am fine and well, thank you for keeping me in your thoughts. I'm more active on facebook and still publish a lot of content relating to my adventures there. I only update the blog when there is a lengthy article/discussion (or controversial incident, hahaha) to be prepared.
My profile is public so you should be able to see almost everything I put on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gangasudhan , cheers!
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